Join Bridge Winners
All comments by Allan Graves
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
1 ) I agree completely with Tony. 2) confessing makes a difference 3) no need to rush this part.
Sept. 19, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
No, Mustafa I know how you are feeling but the mechanisms of the catch-a-cheat initiative are settling in nicely If you have a lot of hand evidence then send it the the collection unit and stay patient. We no longer need public outing. That is wrong .
Focus on your own NBO and help them improve there governing. If we had done this years ago the events of today may have occurred a lot earlier.
Sept. 19, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
Job one for the NBO's was to protect the integrity of the game.

Actually Jean Charles if anything is incredible is a) that you chose to post something without thinking about it and b) if you still chose to post, it was not to simply apologize.

You were , and took on, the job as being one of the protectors.
The protectors could have done something like:
“ Lets raise some private money and get our best players to analyze video regarding the rumored pairs so we can get to the bottom of this. A generous budget and full support. Back channel the ACBL to get their videos.
And the protectors could have done that, oh I don't know , how about years ago ?

Things happen when the happen . To say things would have been better if we had handed everything over to the NBO administrators is not relevant . What is relevant is that we did not do that and have consistently explained our reasons for not doing that. The results so far mean that Bridge has a chance to revive itself. A chance mind you. These events are very damaging . Bridge as a relevant mind sport may never recover in the public eye .

Under your watch.

Having said that you are correct in saying that the penalty phase is very important.
Alex and Joseph chose to confess. That makes a difference. Especially for them in their life going forward. It is a big decision how to approach that. On an earlier post I mentioned how every spiritual tradition values voluntary confession as the best step one in dealing with the personal and societal damage that has been caused.

You are representing the Monaco Bridge Federation. and are a member of the other governing European and World bridge organizations.It seems your ”go to response “ in these matters continues to be ” Shoot the messenger "

In civilized governance models when scandals of the relative magnitude of this occur right under the noses of those who have wholeheartedly taken on responsibility
they admit it and resign.

The least you can do is apologize





Sept. 19, 2015
Allan Graves edited this comment Sept. 19, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
three cheers for ISH
Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
Video and screens beginning rnd of 64 . Empowered directors whose rulings won't be gutted in committee and a renewed faith in a new process of protecting the integrity of the game . Also ,my hobby horse in this , bidding tablets behind lowered screens and raised screens in the card play . The clown in your example couldn't deny it and would have suffered a max imp penalty ,say lucky 13 ' and one of those warning cards that world football uses. More electronic than now just not all the way .
Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
I respect the compassion displayed by this of you willing to offer a second chance. However they are a big favorite to reoffend . The damage and harm they can cause is not worth the risk in my opinion . No second chance for conspiring with a partner . No second chance for having hand records . It was premeditated so out the door forever.
Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
Larry what do you feel about having bidding tablets at a table with screens as that would allow the screen to be “ down ” the entire auction no tray needed , no UI arguments . We play the cards as usual with the screens up. This seems a normal extension of the bid box idea . All results entered on bridge mates after the hand so no pencils or pens for private scores ( everyone gets a printout immediately after the game. I know i posted it earlier but I have come around a bit to see this sort of compromise as useful.
Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
Bill that is a good Question The due process commentators had a valid and necessary point to make at the very beginning of the FS affair.“ Due process is the fundamental issue. ” We have procedures in place to execute due process. You guys are out of line “ A duck may be a T REX until the DNA is tested. Give the duck to the NBO and they will test the DNA We countered that argument with a duck is a duck and then we proved it. Twice The first time should have been the end., the second time should have been the end. We did not start the third pair rumors.
Since the very beginning their arguments, dozens and dozens if I am not mistaken, have a main point has always been his first point. As Stevie W said ” I'm done with you “ In my opinion the do the right thing path is often the difficult path of seeing rules as relative rather than absolute. Therefore to” do the right thing “you have to go beyond the rule.
Those who hide in the absolute ”truth " of relative rules are essentially afraid, sadly to get real… We all do it of course , life is not easy. In fact in it is often extremely difficult
Bill all opinions are welcome and are relevant but those opining who have no skin in the game have to be extra circumspect. They are commenting on an event they did not experience. Life is experiential , not intellectual. Our language can only approximate experience never explain it exactly. Your experience of something is by nature slightly different than mine. I lived these events . Many others lived these events. we experienced them. We experienced the massive harm they have done to us and other. Some did not. Some continues to criticize and the criticisms are not shallow the are deep (they is not criticizing our haircuts when they accuse of being cavalier around destroying peoples reputations. They are criticizing our deepest ethics as we deal our very real direct experience over many years with these 4 players who , allegedly, cheat at bridge , our frustration at the unwillingness of the NBO 's to do something about it, and the risks and costs we took to ignore the rules and do the right thing, . Therefore those who did not experience these events in some direct way need to be respectful of that , and make sure their comments reflect that. Just think twice before hitting the send button. They do not do that. That is the nature of trolling. They get involved in a contrarian way when they have no skin in the game. It is just a head trip and most of us are long past the point of being particularly polite about this. Its a free world to be sure but it works both ways. I apologize for any previous reference to actual persons. Any criticisms are to trolls in general.
Sept. 18, 2015
Allan Graves edited this comment Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
This community of BW players who were involved directly or indirectly with the cases of FS and FN and the ousting of Israel and Monaco from the Bermuda Bowl have accomplished the mission. The evidence has been turned over to the WBF, ACBL , EBL and other NBO who will now apply due process. The alleged crooks are out. The BB is fair. Those few who have schooled us repeatedly on lack of due process constantly made the argument that the NBO would do the job in spite of the overwhelming evidence that they could not. There troll argument that “ a duck may be a T Rex until you analyze the DNA was one relentless argument re the FS and FN cases. Their other argument , although never clearly stated , was that if you have to out cheats in a rough and ready way then it was better to let them cheat rather than sully the appearance of civility . Obviously the many of us that had had enough chose the authentic path. Do the right thing. rather than the fake path of the coward who hides behind rules as absolutes rather than the courage to see rules as relative guidelines.
As we always stated repeatedly once this mission was accomplished then due process can start again but it cannot be business as usual and I for one am sure it won't be. All of us need to hold the NBO's accountable for using the investigative examples of the last few weeks to bring their due process procedures in line with the demands of the modern game.
Any whispering campaigns that started in months past were a result of a broken recorder system for due process and severe reprimand , as it should be , for public accusation. Therefore only whispering was possible but that can stop now.

We have the investigation methods now to stay behind the scenes until we have proof.
I don't know how this third pair issue began. The trolls, who have no skin in these very stressful matters , had a lot to do with it, fanning the flames or riding their one trick ponies up their fantasy high roads or down their fantasy low roads. Others thought it best to bring things to a ” painful point“ That is almost never a successful strategy
I vote for a complete moratorium on anything to do with the ” third pair" Everyone who has posted please agree to stop. There is no last word to have. Their never is.
It is best for the game we love, that we stop this now, The entire community is naturally completely stressed out.
It is time to rest and contemplate an enormous job well done .
Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
Some of you have no skin in this game.
The players who played on teams with these 4 alleged crooks in dozens of ACBL Nationals have skin in the game. Some of you have no skin in this game. The teams of Israel and Monaco that had to drop out of the BB have skin in the game. Some of you have no skin in this game. The Israeli world junior champions of a few years back have skin in this game. Some of you have no skin in this game. The Italian teams that Fantoni and Nunes played on have skin in the game, Some of you have no skin in this game. All the opponents of those alleged crooked teams have skin in the game. Some of you have no skin in this game All the great players who rolled up there sleeves and went to work to catch these alleged crooks, have skin in the game. Some you have no skin in this game… All the players who understood that extraordinary steps had to be taken have skin in the game. Some you have no skin in this game. Like all trolls everywhere you stake out self aggrandizing positions of a contrary nature . In this case some of you have chosen to stake out the intellectual high moral ground and school those of us who have skin in the game. Some of you have no skin in this game . It is not about you and your head trip as the high moral guardian.You have no skin in this game. This is not about you, It is not even remotely about you
It is about something else.
Sept. 18, 2015
Allan Graves edited this comment Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
Playing bridge is a privilege, not a right.
If you cheat you grossly abuse that privilege. We are uncovering constant new additions to how truly abusive it is. This whispering campaign is yet another example. Cheats pollute the environment. Paranoia spreads. When we catch-a-cheat it must be suspension for life. if you conspire, suspension for life. I you get hand records, suspension for life. If you simply self cheat and we can prove it. Suspension for life. Israel had Fisher Schwartz on numerous occasions we have found out but not only let them back repeatedly but honoured them by nominating them to represent their country. How come the WBF credentials committee allowed this ? Did we have Fantoni and Nunes when they were just starting ? Did we Italy? Lets assume not but certainly there history suggests that some situations were swept under the rug for political or incompetence reasons. Look how much damage these 4 have caused by being enabled.
The consequences of allowing convicted cheats to re enter the game is not even remotely worth it. They almost invariably cheat again or simply regress to being unethical . Having players convicted of cheating and then being welcomed at our tournaments is an affront. The incredibly disturbing case of the vegetable foot soldiers being held in high esteem and “the cars” being welcomed back to bridge is highly disturbing. Cokin and Sion back in the game , highly disturbing . There are other ACBL cases where people fixed hands etc and are welcomed back in the game. Highly disturbing. Cases swept under the rug for political reasons. Highly disturbing. You cheat you are suspended for life.
Playing bridge is a privilege , not a right.
Sept. 18, 2015
Allan Graves edited this comment Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
Yes I agree. We need strong legal advice about how to work such a document that binds me to the judgement of an august panel of super experts. In house type counsel will usually, because it is their job, find the argument against such a paper because it still puts the NBO in some risk. However if I sign such an agreement, obtain a lot of results etc that suggest to our august panel that I am , allegedly, a bad guy, and I am suspended and then find a lawyer to represent me, and then convince a judge that the august committee was wrong because although I am a world class player the multitude of illogical and successful actions and the almost complete lack of illogical and unsuccessful actions is simply co incidence and although I did indeed sign the document I want to change my mind on that.
Well I don't know. That seems worth the risk to me to have such a procedure.
Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
We had the hand evidence against FS and the videos from 2014 Eropeans Just way too many illogical bids and plays that were right.
This third pair whispering is wrong I completely agree. To actually talk negatively about actual people who actually are not within earshot actually, is a very bad habit that we all indulge in to some extent . Some more than others and should always be an ongoing “ self improvement ” project for everyone. Usually it is done under the mistaken belief that running others down behind there back will make you appear greater in some way or as “the gossip ”you are the center of attention. Of course the reverse actually occurs but we are usually too polite to point this out or , against our better judgement , we join in. If it is the policy of bridge winners to allow it then it is going to happen. This is different of course than criticizing organizations , submitting hand evidence to someone absolutely committed to follow through, or people in the public realm who have made , or not made , statements.
Part of being in the public realm is that you are open to criticism. I think we all know the difference.
Remember Bridge Winners started the campaign prior to the Chicago Nationals, not us afterward. We have a lot of work to do to analyze the process of the last two months
from the point of view of the systematic failure of the NBO's to protect the game . We need to put together a team of players and the proper processes to investigate suspect pairs with a new system of due process. First we need as Sabine had, full access the videos . The ACBL is afraid of legal issues if they release them in the way the Europeans do so we need a good legal opinion from outside ACBL land to give ACBL the cover that will alleviate those fears. Then we need NBO's to be serious about doing their job . Also remember the notion of committee of our best players world wide who can pass judgement based on “ clear and convincing ” so that a large data base of illogical but successful actions may be grounds for judgement. This process won't be easy and it will take everybody doing what they can to bring it about. Otherwise it will be back to business as usual . I hope we have come to realize that “ business as usual ” is a really bad institutional habit.

Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
I prefer at the table bridge. if we invested in much better surveillance and considered electronic bidding at the table behind screens. ( no tray or bid boxes. UI issues recored etc. no pens or pencils ) then a lot of the major issues would be resolved. Remember we had the Israelis convicted as children but refused to ban them for life at that time and Isreal then continued to promote them on their teams. Proper follow up years ago re Fantoni Nunes by the NBO's might have got them then , allegedly.
Couldn't cheaters cheat in the 4 room proposal ?


Sept. 18, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
Well said Geir.
Sept. 17, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
I just deleted something , sorry
Sept. 17, 2015
Allan Graves edited this comment Sept. 17, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
You push a button when you alert and the opp presses a button to end the dialogue
Sept. 17, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
Well put Richard. On another post I put forward my idea of a table that was covered in nice green felt etc. A real card table but the surface underneath the cloth read the bids and plays and they went to a server . No disputes about infractions , tempo , etc etc . All simply recorded All the data would be there for analysis and you not have to restrict it to later rounds at all. It would simply be the new tournament card table. This prototype idea seems to address the major concerns of both points of view. Face to face on a nice card table ( or we lose the human mystery that adds so much to the bridge experience) and a complete electronic record collected in a quite unobtrusive way for all sorts of good reasons , and in particular to use statistical analysis to spot abnormalities that may , and I say may, be symtomatic of cheating. From that we could intensify the scrutiny . If we can predict elections then we can program “ catch-a-cheat” This would be a very strong deterrent to anyone thinking of cheating as they would not only have to agree to cheat but also vary the cheating randomly to avoid exciting “Big Blue” They might get away with the cheat, but the rest of their game would probably be a mess. If anyone out there has any knowledge about how feasible this table would be to invent, please chime in.
Sept. 17, 2015
Allan Graves edited this comment Sept. 17, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
You know Hanan . With all due respect that is nonsense. If your house is burning down and your family is inside you don't walk three blocks to a payphone and call the fire department.
You are constantly intellectualizing for philosophical and troll reasons something that is very very real. Cheating is reality. Reality is hairy and has 4 legs fangs and claws and is right in front of you. It is not in some safe library with every creature comfort and a big soft chair while you look it up in some book to pontificate,
Sept. 16, 2015
You are ignoring the author of this comment. Click to temporarily show the comment.
That said I agree with Michael that screens are a huge plus. These issues could be so easily
dealt with if the NBO would only invest the proper resources in taping and timing so that tactics
like a described could clearly be seen and proper rulings facilitated.
Sept. 16, 2015
Allan Graves edited this comment Sept. 16, 2015
.

Bottom Home Top