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-Jeff

David said it beautifully.

Again, MATH DOES NOT EQUALS LOGIC IN KID'S EYES. Ignore your current bias that math= logic. Trust me that it doesn't for kids.

Now, as for why logic= good, it kind of targets the person's desire to prove themselves intellectually. You might not understand what I just said, but regardless, the main point of this article is to stop people from using “math.”

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Right, that's why I said I'm not sure about memorizing part.

I believe it is kind of our ethical duty to mention memorizing, but I think it is important to not make it seem like the biggest thing. Which I guess is quite hard to do.

I think you might use this argument: “Yes, in bridge, there is a lot of memorizing involved. However, bridge is different in that there are rewards for memorizing the cards played in that it helps me make winning plays, while it is not what makes me win. As opposed to games where you flip two cards over and if they match, you keep them, and if they don't, you flip them over and have to memorize where and what they are to win, bridge requires you to memorize the cards played AND use logic to make use of the information.”

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>Perhaps, combining your comments about math having a negative connotation and Sudoku having a negative connotation, what you are trying to say is that numbers have a negative connotation? When I aggregate math, bridge, and Sudoku, what I see as the common thread is using logic and learned techniques and strategies to solve a problem. I am guessing that when you aggregate math and Sudoku, what you see as the common thread is the presence of numbers, and you wish to distinguish bridge from those two because – as we agree – much of bridge is about applying logic.

Me: I'm not really saying that numbers are the problems. I'm saying that

A) people do not realize it is mainly logic B) people view it as just plain old rules C) there is a feeling of school and homework to it

Obviously, if you don't view it that way, you can never truly understand the negative connotations to it.

>Perception can become reality, so, whether I agree with what I am assuming is your perspective about math or Sudoku or not, I (as one who is trying to interest youth in playing bridge) benefit from hearing your perspective.

Me: In the end, it all depends on the person you are trying to get. If he views math the way you do, you want to connect math with bridge. If he thinks the way I think he will think (negatively), you do not want to connect bridge to math.

I feel like most people in the comment section agree with my analysis of “math”. However, they are not everybody, so I think a poll on this would be best.

*hint *hint

>Puzzle-solving has a negative connotation.

Michael, I did misquote you. What you stated had a negative connotation was Sudoku, which I had used as an example of puzzle-solving.

Me: However, I do think puzzle-solving has a negative connotation to it. When I think of puzzle-solving, I think of Jig Saw puzzles. I don't like that.

I think fewer people would agree with me on this, but I think a poll would be best.

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-Rebecca,

There is a lot, but it is much easier to memorize it if understand the logic, and maybe apply some general principles to it.

But I guess what Monty said about “Memorization is what most beginners try to use when learning to bid, rather than trying to understand why bids mean what they do.” is half false. There are some things where you just have to memorize.

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-Jeff Bayone

I'm interested in when you said that each trick is 3 points. Wouldn't that mean you would need 21 to open? When you bid 1C, you think you will make 1C, so you need 7 tricks, duh.

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>Bridge is about solving problems, right? And all the steps that lead to a solution, such as gathering evidence, evaluating evidence, applying techniques to use the evidence to your best advantage.

To me, that conjures applying logic and executing strategy. But then, I think of math the same way.“

Me: You are absolutely right. That's what I said.

However, the main point is not everybody truly knows what math is like. They don't have the same perspective of you on math.

> Michael, from your previous post I am even more concerned about your comment that puzzle-solving has a bad connotation than I am about your comment, there and again now, that math has a bad connotation. I am having a hard time exiting the belief that the group of youth who like to solve problems are the best target of youth for being taught bridge.

Me: Did I really say that puzzle-solving has a bad connotation? In a way, puzzle-solving is quite vague. Is it jig saw? Is it Sudoku? Or is it the dreaded math according to my friends on facebook?

The group of youth who like to solve problems are indeed the best target. I believe I have not yet disagreed with you. No, what I'm saying is that by using math as= solve problems, it brings in the negative connotations of math, which are ”useless, boring, and school.“

Sometimes, teachers are not able to fully show the beauty of logic in math, rather they make it seem all rules and stuff.

I don't want people to think of bridge as ”useless, boring, and school.“ I want to focus on ”logic" part.

While you may think math is synonymous with logic, that is not the case, at least IMO, with other kids.

Michael Xu

Michael Xu

I now see your point in Richard's explanation.

Michael Xu

This article was on how to teach bidding, not when to teach bidding.

Michael Xu

I admit Bridge is still somewhat a game of memorization.

Michael Xu

Michael Xu

Michael Xu

Nice explanation.

Michael Xu

David said it beautifully.

Again, MATH DOES NOT EQUALS LOGIC IN KID'S EYES. Ignore your current bias that math= logic. Trust me that it doesn't for kids.

Now, as for why logic= good, it kind of targets the person's desire to prove themselves intellectually. You might not understand what I just said, but regardless, the main point of this article is to stop people from using “math.”

Michael Xu

I would consider bidding the suit where you have longer trumps as logic.

I will not worry about not meeting their expectation for logic.

Michael Xu

Michael Xu

Michael Xu

I believe it is kind of our ethical duty to mention memorizing, but I think it is important to not make it seem like the biggest thing. Which I guess is quite hard to do.

I think you might use this argument: “Yes, in bridge, there is a lot of memorizing involved. However, bridge is different in that there are rewards for memorizing the cards played in that it helps me make winning plays, while it is not what makes me win. As opposed to games where you flip two cards over and if they match, you keep them, and if they don't, you flip them over and have to memorize where and what they are to win, bridge requires you to memorize the cards played AND use logic to make use of the information.”

but you should find a way to shorten it.

Michael Xu

Me: I'm not really saying that numbers are the problems. I'm saying that

A) people do not realize it is mainly logic

B) people view it as just plain old rules

C) there is a feeling of school and homework to it

Obviously, if you don't view it that way, you can never truly understand the negative connotations to it.

>Perception can become reality, so, whether I agree with what I am assuming is your perspective about math or Sudoku or not, I (as one who is trying to interest youth in playing bridge) benefit from hearing your perspective.

Me: In the end, it all depends on the person you are trying to get. If he views math the way you do, you want to connect math with bridge. If he thinks the way I think he will think (negatively), you do not want to connect bridge to math.

I feel like most people in the comment section agree with my analysis of “math”. However, they are not everybody, so I think a poll on this would be best.

*hint *hint

>Puzzle-solving has a negative connotation.

Michael, I did misquote you. What you stated had a negative connotation was Sudoku, which I had used as an example of puzzle-solving.

Me: However, I do think puzzle-solving has a negative connotation to it. When I think of puzzle-solving, I think of Jig Saw puzzles. I don't like that.

I think fewer people would agree with me on this, but I think a poll would be best.

*wink *wink

Michael Xu

There is a lot, but it is much easier to memorize it if understand the logic, and maybe apply some general principles to it.

But I guess what Monty said about “Memorization is what most beginners try to use when learning to bid, rather than trying to understand why bids mean what they do.” is half false. There are some things where you just have to memorize.

Michael Xu

I'm interested in when you said that each trick is 3 points. Wouldn't that mean you would need 21 to open? When you bid 1C, you think you will make 1C, so you need 7 tricks, duh.

My point is, not sure why you included that.

Michael Xu

Michael Xu

Michael Xu

To me, that conjures applying logic and executing strategy. But then, I think of math the same way.“

Me: You are absolutely right. That's what I said.

However, the main point is not everybody truly knows what math is like. They don't have the same perspective of you on math.

>

Michael, from your previous post I am even more concerned about your comment that puzzle-solving has a bad connotation than I am about your comment, there and again now, that math has a bad connotation. I am having a hard time exiting the belief that the group of youth who like to solve problems are the best target of youth for being taught bridge.

Me: Did I really say that puzzle-solving has a bad connotation? In a way, puzzle-solving is quite vague. Is it jig saw? Is it Sudoku? Or is it the dreaded math according to my friends on facebook?

The group of youth who like to solve problems are indeed the best target. I believe I have not yet disagreed with you. No, what I'm saying is that by using math as= solve problems, it brings in the negative connotations of math, which are ”useless, boring, and school.“

Sometimes, teachers are not able to fully show the beauty of logic in math, rather they make it seem all rules and stuff.

I don't want people to think of bridge as ”useless, boring, and school.“ I want to focus on ”logic" part.

While you may think math is synonymous with logic, that is not the case, at least IMO, with other kids.

Michael Xu

Michael Xu